We are going to join this [3feetplease.org.uk]

Many people are missing out on the joys of cycling because they?re afraid of traffic ? 86%, according to the London Mayor?s Cycle Safety Action Plan.

Regular cyclists know that vehicles pass too close, too often. This is not only intimidating, but increases the chance of collision, sometimes with appalling consequences.

At present, the Highway Code advises drivers to ?give cyclists at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car?. We say this is confusing.

Bikes are not cars. They?re less predictable, they travel more slowly, they can?t see what?s behind them, they swerve to avoid potholes, and they have no steel shell to protect them. It?s pretty obvious that such vague guidance puts cyclists at a disadvantage.

For the rules of the road to be respected, they need to be clear. That?s why we think there should be a mandatory minimum three feet of space between bicycles and passing motor vehicles. More and more countries are adopting safe passing rules, including France and 15 US states.

A fair and measurable distance would reduce the scope for error and dispute. Fewer close calls would improve perceptions of safety, make existing cyclists more confident and encourage more drivers to use the bike instead. And if everyone complied, there would never be another collision.

Three feet is less room than I'd like. Doesn't the Highway Code mention 1.5m.

"I thought of that while riding my bike." --Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

2007 ICE QNT
2008 Hase Kettwiesel AL27
2011 Catrike Trail.
1951 Engine in need of partial rebuild.

The Highway Code used to mention 6ft/2metres (which I remembered because they're not the same distance)...

So why sign up to reduce this. Now a petition to enforce the HC recommendation would be a good idea.

"I thought of that while riding my bike." --Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

2007 ICE QNT
2008 Hase Kettwiesel AL27
2011 Catrike Trail.
1951 Engine in need of partial rebuild.

Apologies Geoff - I had not planned to have the cars come closer

As the notes on the website state the actual distance is not mentioned - you need to do a lot of cross referencing on the links below to find out what the highway code implies to

[www.direct.gov.uk]


[www.direct.gov.uk]

> ?give cyclists at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car?

Given the way many people drive, this is not as much as you may expect/hope :-(

> Highway Code...

Unfortunately the Highway Code is not in itself law. It is just advice unless backed up by other laws. And give that most motorists give the *law* scant regard it leaves the Highway Code in the realm of a thoughtful few :-(

I think that all motorists in order to pass the test should be made to spend a day cycling on our city/town roads.
How about a campaign for that ?
Call it 2 Wheels First.

Just a day?
A year on pedal power first!

>> ?give cyclists at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car?
> Given the way many people drive, this is not as much as you may expect/hope :-(

Only because that text is a little ambiguous. The picture clearly shows that what it means is - as if the cyclist took up as much room as a car. But as someone else points out, either way it isn't a law, nor is the 'leave plenty of room' that it says many times.


The other problem is that 3 ft is far too little when the speed differences get higher or the vehicles get bigger.

If you were to make all drivers leave 3 feet it could well end up that most of them would be leaving less space than they do already.

Some of the comments on Pedalabits opening post caused me concern regarding cyclists.

"They can`t see what is behind them". There are plenty of cheap products on the market that can help solve this problem.

"They swerve to avoid potholes" Well if they swerve without checking a mirror or looking over the shoulder, maybe it is not just the motorists who need educating.

If cyclists are going to be road users, then they also need to take responsibility. I know this is a cycling site but that does not absolve us of our responsibilities to other road users.

As an ex police officer I would say that this 3 feet rule would be almost impossible to police. The best way to avoid cycle accidents is to campaign for more cycle paths.

Steve

Steveindenmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As an ex police officer I would say that this 3
> feet rule would be almost impossible to police.
> The best way to avoid cycle accidents is to
> campaign for more cycle paths.

Sorry Steve, but that is contrary to best practice as described by John Franklin in Cyclecraft. Pure segregation leaves motorists with no experience or expectation of meeting other road uses on the highway and would encourage them to act more like they were travelling on a motorway all of the time. John also provides statistics showing cycle path accident figures can be significantly higher than road cycling - for example 6x higher on the standard UK cycle path alongside a road where the cyclist is obliged to give way (and there may even be signs to dismount) at each and every sideroad and gateway.

Cycle paths as implemented in the UK are a complete disaster. Most I've encountered have blockages preventing anything other than an unlaiden mountain bike using them, they frequently go nowhere useful and are often so badly signed they cannot be used on a casual basis by people who haven't bought the map to know where an otherwise annonymous numbered route goes.

Motorists having to demonstrate experience as a cyclist before being able to get a licence would be a more effective step forward. This seems to happen by default in the Nederlands but here it seems to be a single step from Playstation racing games straight to the public highway.

Cycle paths as implemented in the Nederlands on the other hand....

Rob

Steveindenmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The best way to avoid cycle accidents is to
> campaign for more cycle paths.
>


Oooh, now you've done it!


Many would prefer to say that the best way to avoid cycle accidents is to improve education and attitude among road user - drivers and cyclists. As you say, we must take some responsibility for our actions, and drivers must learn that it's not vital to go as fast as you can all the time, and get ahead of everything slower at all costs.

That said, we're just back from Germany, where there is a combination of cyclepaths AND good driving manners. A bit freaky, to be crossing the exit of a roundabout on a bike path, and have an exiting driver stop to let you across....

I also agree that 3 feet is not really enough. Anyway, how many drivers can estimate any sort of distance clearly?

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

Also often found on www.cyclechat.co.uk

RobH Wrote:

> Cycle paths as implemented in the Nederlands on
> the other hand....
>
> Rob


I stood on Sunday, mouth open, as David Hembrow said how bad the German cycle facilities were....

But then, he's been a bit spoilt, living in the Netherlands...

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

Also often found on www.cyclechat.co.uk

The biggest problem we have here in Derby, and I suspect elsewhere in the UK is the refusal of the Police to police. The local head of police say they are too busy dealing with accidents to perform any active preventative policing - well I wonder why that is?
Our local constabulary was also trying to block the reduction of speed limits on approach to our rural village from National (60mph) to 40mph. Fortunately they failed. But despite drawing three-quarters-of-a-million-pounds as part of the council tax from this village alone they plead poverty as their excuse for refusing to perform any traffic policing.
Sorry, but the Police have not earn any respect from me, quite the contrary.
Rob

I did not mean to ruffle any feathers....oh go on of course I did.

Actually I didn`t and I am sure I have not, I think there is just a big difference of opinion of what is best practices and these practices even change from country to country.

Arch you are right. Educating all road users and improving their attitude to each other would be the best way forward. But that means you are giving people the option to learn and participate. I think it is pretty obvious that there is a huge percentage of road user who could not care less about other road users.

Rob. I take it that John Franklin was only writing in relation to UK cycle paths, I have not read the book.

In Denmark bikes rule the roads and cycle paths. All vehicles have to give way to bikes. If you are at traffic lights or junction and are turning then you must give way to cycles. In fact I find it hard to think when cycles do not have right of way. Most of the car drivers are cyclists as well. It is almost like a national pastime.

By having this law it forces motorists to be far more aware of cyclists. A friend of mine fell foul of this recently. He turned right and in doing so caused a cyclists to brake hard and fall off, even though there was not a collision and no injury.

The cyclist reported him and he was fined, had points on his licence and was ordered to take his test again. FIRST offence.

I have never looked at getting cycling statistics regards to denmark but I will and it will be interesting to see how they compare, percentage wise to the UK.

Some of you need to throw your bikes on a Ryanair plane and come across for a few days. I am sure we could sort something out. Denmark is a great country to ride around. Every village seem to have a night when villagers get on their bikes together and take their snacks for a ride out. I don`t mean the lycra mob I mean everyone else. There are literally hundreds of the lycra mob come past my house each week as I am the Marguerite Route which is a very popular riding route in Denmark.I can see why the guy in Holland thought the cycle system in Germany was bad. It is because we are spoilt rotten in our own countries.

Bikes just seem to be much more respected and accepted over here, plus the traffic is much lighter.

Steve



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2010 04:26PM by Steveindenmark.

Rest assured, Denmark is on my to-do list - I've only been for a week, to Copenhagen, and as a pedestrian, but I fancy riding across the country some time.

I was amazed and delighted at the huge wide cycle lanes in the city, and the way drivers gave way. Generally, the drivers were just better, more laid back. In a week, I think I heard a car horn once. Imagine that in central London!

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

Also often found on www.cyclechat.co.uk

"I did not mean to ruffle any feathers....". I don't think you are ruffling any feathers, but your statement "The best way to avoid cycle accidents is to campaign for more cycle paths" needed to be challenged. In the UK at least, I believe I am correct in stating that the concensus amongst experienced cyclists is that segregated cycle paths in the right place are to be encouraged, but NOT, and at the expense of our right to ride on the highway.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2010 08:45PM by beeline.

beeline ha a good point.

The standard UK response to 'the cycle problem' is to want to shift us off the roads. Given the attitude of some drivers we need to oppose this notion at every turn.

I left Sustrans (I was a Ranger for several years.) over their campaign for segregation in order to encourage female cycling. I have nothing against encouraging cycling but segregated provision will, in my opinion, lead to our losing the right to ride the roads.

"I thought of that while riding my bike." --Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

2007 ICE QNT
2008 Hase Kettwiesel AL27
2011 Catrike Trail.
1951 Engine in need of partial rebuild.

I stopped being a Sustrans Supporter (their term for somebody donating an annual membership) because too many of the routes were impossible to use for disabled, trike or trailer users and Sustrans as an organisation simply did not care. I asked for route maps to indicate where a trike/pram/trailer could, and more importantly, could not access routes and use access points but they stated they had no interest in this issue.
And that is before getting to the problem of no directional segregation as is manditary on cycle paths in the Nederlands and Belgium and the minimum 1.10m width (per direction) also manditatary in those countries.
Rob
wrhpv.com

Geoff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I left Sustrans (I was a Ranger for several
> years.) over their campaign for segregation in
> order to encourage female cycling.

That seems counter-intuative. As a lone female, I'd rather be on a nice well populated road than a quiet segregated path, esp at night.

I can see what they meant, and maybe if you assume the segregation to mean no more than 'a separate path running alongside the road', that's fine. But a lot of segregation takes you off through wooded areas, etc...

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

Also often found on www.cyclechat.co.uk

That was a point I mentioned in my resignation letter. There's been two fairly local attacks on segregated cycle paths in the last 18 months. One victim was riding a bike the other using it as a short cut on foot.

The problem I'm sure many of us has come across at least once is that if there is a cycle path near the road, no matter how bad, some motorists will expect all cyclists to use it.

"I thought of that while riding my bike." --Albert Einstein, on the Theory of Relativity

2007 ICE QNT
2008 Hase Kettwiesel AL27
2011 Catrike Trail.
1951 Engine in need of partial rebuild.

The cycle paths in Denmark run alongside the roads and not wander off in dimly lit places like the Redways in Milton Keynes.

I used to be a police officer in Milton Keynes and wanted to hang the idiots who designed the Redway routes. Talk about being dangerous.

Cycle routes have to be safe as well as practicle, which means they have to be seen from the roads.

Over the weekend I will take some general photos of the paths I use. weather permitting.

It is strange to hear peoples opinions from the UK regarding cycle paths. You all seem to assume the worst and probably good reason, when the idea of taking bikes off the roads are mentioned.

In mainland Europe we all seem to accept it because we know cyclists here are a lot further up the pecking order than they are in the UK.

Except for getting the government to ensure I never have a head wind again, I cannot think much else they could do for me.

Steve

Steveindenmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Except for getting the government to ensure I
> never have a head wind again, I cannot think much
> else they could do for me.


From what I've seen of Denmark, they'd probably try!

I'm afraid here in the UK, we just know what it'll be like. Piecemeal, ill-planned, priorities (both political and physical) all mixed up. I hate to think this way, about 'my' country, bits of which I love very much, but the fact remains, emigration seems attractive sometimes.

But never mind. The sun is trying to come out, I've got 3 miles home to do, and we're off to Presteigne tomorrow...

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

Also often found on www.cyclechat.co.uk

Yeah, our government over here won't even follow the rest of Europe with the rule that the larger vehicle has greater responsibility...

Arch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I stood on Sunday, mouth open, as David Hembrow
> said how bad the German cycle facilities were....

I think it's Netherlands >> Germany > Austria >> UK? :-)

Thank you all for your comments regarding the 3 feet rule

I have sent a link to David for him to read himself with my comment

"I think any campaign to raise awareness can only be good, the detail of the message can be discussed when we are alot safer"

palmersperry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think it's Netherlands >> Germany >
> Austria >> UK? :-)


No, I think you're wrong there. Isn't it:

Netherlands > Germany > Austria > Outer Mongolia > The Moon > UK?

;-)

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me wash the car. If I had a car.

Also often found on www.cyclechat.co.uk

Arch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, I think you're wrong there. Isn't it:
>
> Netherlands > Germany > Austria > Outer Mongolia
> > The Moon > UK?
> ;-)

Well alas the cycle provision in the city of Salzburg is only about as good as York from what I've seen (ie: some good useful stuff, and quite a bit of dross). However out in the sticks there's quite a lot of tracks connecting villages and towns together which are quite nice. The downside with them is that they aren't 100% paved and you wouldn't want to be on a roadbike on the non-paved sections!

Hello Gang

Here is the response from David via Email to me

Thanks for your support, Trevor.



Sometimes 3 feet is enough, sometimes not. That?s why we call for a minimum 3 feet depending on circumstances.



As the site points out, 3 Feet Please is not about police chasing motorists with tape measures. It?s about having a realistic, easily remembered benchmark that cyclists can rely on in case of collision or dispute.


Hope this helps and regards,

David



Thanks David
Ped