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    <title>VV Discussion</title>
    <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/list.php?3</link>
    <description><![CDATA[Discussion of Velo Vision magazine contents, the website, and all topics likely to be of interest to Velo Vision readers]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:53:10 +0100</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:53:10 +0100</lastBuildDate>
    <category>VV Discussion</category>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7218#msg-7218</link>
      <author>Arch</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Uncle Phil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

&gt; 
&gt; You shouldn't have to - there should be a sign to
&gt; tell you where it goes.  There would be on a motor
&gt; road.

Oh, I know....

I'm just back from Germany.  I'm definitely emigrating....]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7218#msg-7218</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:53:10 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7208#msg-7208</link>
      <author>Uncle Phil</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Arch Wrote:

&gt; Oh, I think I know where you mean.  Never had
&gt; occasion to use it I guess.  I know there a path
&gt; that comes out there, but I've never actually been
&gt; to see where it went...

You shouldn't have to - there should be a sign to tell you where it goes.  There would be on a motor road.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7208#msg-7208</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:42:33 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7146#msg-7146</link>
      <author>Borntoolate</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Here's a proper way to provide for commuters in a hurry;

When Im in London, I live on a boat at Canary Wharf. My commute to the City is 3.5  miles (6km). 

First, a subway from the Marina, under a major road intersection, to Poplar High Street (now bypassed and a quiet mixed-use road with cycle signage), then take a pelican (which actually changes when I press the button!) across a main road, (or alternatively I just take the roads through 'Little Manhattan' - low-threat, good bike parking, no marked bike routes but low-speed traffic). 

Now both these possible routes converge, and go through a road intersection on a green two-way cycle lane with its own lights. Then it's narrow riverside streets for a while ('Narrow Street' in fact), through a park whish is actually the roof of Limehouse Tunnel, across another road junction on green, light-controlled lanes, and on to Cable Street. 

This used to be a busy 2-way road. It is now 1-way, with half its width as a double-track, green cycle highway, often seperated from the road by wide kerbs. This proceeds 2 miles, almost straight, right to the Tower and City. Bloody brilliant! 

Don't cycle slowly at peak times though, or you'll get an angry queue of fast dayglo/helmet commuters behind you. Jess counted 11 Bromptons on one ride of Cable Street last week!
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4400635401_01b8118696_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4400635249_baa53000d6_o.jpg]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7146#msg-7146</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:07:27 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7137#msg-7137</link>
      <author>RobH</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Bournmouth gets my vote as worst city on my recent tour...
Pick up a destination sign at one roundabout and it has disappeared at the next.
Roads laid out as car race tracks.
All signed routes seem to lead to and stop at car parks.
Cycle Routes shrink and shrink until you end up cycling on a footpath that suddenly ends with a right-left twin rightangle turn back onto the road. 

By contrast Brighton was great with bus lane cycle routes into the city from Newhaven and a cycle path along the prom (which was only suitable for a steady 8mph as it wasn't very wide and there were lots of people wondering on and off it).]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7137#msg-7137</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:50:01 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7131#msg-7131</link>
      <author>Pedalabit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Had a small taste of the cycle routes in South Nottingham today, signage was very good and no barriers - local routes not sustrans as far as I can tell

http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/home/environment/countryside/cycling.htm]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7131#msg-7131</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:38:05 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7126#msg-7126</link>
      <author>Arch</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Well, I had occasion to go along there today, so I took it:

pros: better surface than the road at that point, and no impatient cars behind.

cons: cattle grids at each gate - luckily the Dash is narrow enough to pass through the gates easily and slowly, I wouldn't do it on an upright, with my cattle grid phobia.  And then it just dumps you back on the same road.

And those odd metal boxes on the gates, that looked like they might house mind zapping electro magnets or something....]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7126#msg-7126</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:00:42 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7093#msg-7093</link>
      <author>Arch</author>
      <description><![CDATA[palmersperry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

&gt; Come down Broadway, just after the mini-roundabout
&gt; at the end of Broadway there's a turning on the
&gt; left that is the start of the farcility.  The
&gt; other end connects onto the (actualy vaguely
&gt; useful) path that connects the university end of
&gt; Retreat Lane to Hes' Lane.

Oh, I think I know where you mean.  Never had occasion to use it I guess.  I know there a path that comes out there, but I've never actually been to see where it went...]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7093#msg-7093</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:41:35 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7092#msg-7092</link>
      <author>palmersperry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Arch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; I always get Heslington Road and Lane mixed up,
&gt; but can't remember a facility like that on either
&gt; of them.  Where is it?  I've obviously never
&gt; thought of using it, if I can't remember it...

Come down Broadway, just after the mini-roundabout at the end of Broadway there's a turning on the left that is the start of the farcility.  The other end connects onto the (actualy vaguely useful) path that connects the university end of Retreat Lane to Hes' Lane.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7092#msg-7092</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:00:38 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7091#msg-7091</link>
      <author>simon</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Borntoolate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

&gt; @Hilldodger. Here, the policy is to erect more
&gt; barriers (Hob Moor).
Gah! Whoever designed those bloody things should be shot. Repeatedly.
I almost killed myself first time I tried to ride through one on the fixed because the pedals grounded - Ghod help you if you ride anything more exotic. So I either use the wicket gates or avoid Hob Moor altogether.

The Ministry of Crap Design were on fine form when they came up with those wretched things.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7091#msg-7091</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:51:33 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7084#msg-7084</link>
      <author>Arch</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I always get Heslington Road and Lane mixed up, but can't remember a facility like that on either of them.  Where is it?  I've obviously never thought of using it, if I can't remember it...]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7084#msg-7084</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 20:05:52 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7073#msg-7073</link>
      <author>John Turvey</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The Newcastle/Gateshead Millenium bridge (the 'Blinking Eye bridge) is even worse - it was built with two partly seperated routes - when it was opened the narrower side (over 2 metres wide, so no complaints about the width) was for cyclists, and the wider side was for pedestrians - the only initial complaint was about the access controls (which are just wide enough for a recumbent trike to go straight through with care, and the same width all the way up, so a lot better than many access controls).

However, a few months later, the designation was changed - the wider side is still exclusivly for pedestrians, and the narrower side is now shared use - but for some reason (at least when I am cycling across it) nearly all the pedestrians use the narrower side - very frustating.

John Turvey]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7073#msg-7073</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:10:00 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7070#msg-7070</link>
      <author>Geoff</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Thanks for the quote borntoolate. I'll be wearing that one out!!!!]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7070#msg-7070</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:01:23 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7066#msg-7066</link>
      <author>Borntoolate</author>
      <description><![CDATA[@Palmersperry/ Yes I agree, I mentioned heslington Lane, because it was opened in a blaze of publicity. It runs from the road, thruogh a gate, through an impossible access barrier, then 300m alongside the road, to emerge again via another barrier, and another gate, and another barrier, back on to the road you just came off, but you have to give way to re-access the road. Thats the standard of 'provision' they think we are worth. The barriers on that track are too narrow to lat the handlebars of a standard hybrid or Dutch bike through (tested)!
Millenium bridge is wonderful, although the Council (who didnt pay for it, of course) even tried to spoil that one with 'speed humps'. There's also no delineation between modes, so its hazardous for cyclists and peds, with a cn unmarked steps access on the fast downslope, for peds to emerge from as a brake-test!
@John, &quot;A cycling facility which required cyclists to dismount is not a cycling facility&quot;. This was always the doctrine of the Cycle Campaign Network. Its always a useful quote for letters to the press.
@Hilldodger. Here, the policy is to erect more barriers (Hob Moor).]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7066#msg-7066</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:40:33 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7059#msg-7059</link>
      <author>Hilldodger</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Not any more you don't, the policy here is to remove barriers.

Anyway this survey - which I posted as a joke! - is more about council commitment, how much rain you get, cycling projects, how good looking the cyclists are etc etc etc.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7059#msg-7059</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:43:27 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7054#msg-7054</link>
      <author>John Turvey</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Try the Nreat Central Way just north of the A563 with a trike and trailer - I did (once) and have marked it down as a route never to use again - like far too many cycle routes - what I like are cycling routes where, as in the Netherlands, I can ride my trike with trailer attached all day without having to get off/disconnect/unload etc and lift each item chest high every few hundred metres - all too many 'facilities' for cyclists in the UK are cycle routes but not cycling routes - anything with a 'cyclist dismount' sign, an undropped (or inadequaterly dropped) kerb, an 'access' (anti-cycle barrier) control (and I can go on and on but cannot be bothered) is a cycle route where it is impossible to cycle so is not a cycling route - even 'on-road' cycle lanes are often so well designed that I can only assume it is the intention of the designer that cyclists who use them will die.

John Turvey]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7054#msg-7054</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:36:19 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7052#msg-7052</link>
      <author>Pedalabit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Er, Great Central Way? Riverside Way?

Are these safe routes to for a lady commuter in the dark, oh and the glass - I think not !!]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7052#msg-7052</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:14:52 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7046#msg-7046</link>
      <author>Hilldodger</author>
      <description><![CDATA[ 

Er, Great Central Way? Riverside Way?]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7046#msg-7046</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:23:51 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7043#msg-7043</link>
      <author>palmersperry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Arch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; All we actually need in physical terms is nice tarmac,
&gt; or even half decent tarmac, and some metal hoops
&gt; to lock our bikes to. 

My personal opinion was that unless a cycle facility provides a journey option that wasn't available before, then it's not worth bothering with.  Obviously even ones that pass this test can still be awful to the point of non-useability, however painting a greenstripe 18&quot; wide in the gutter definitely fails!

However my test means there are 3, maybe 4, cycle facilities in York that are worth mentioning - the cyclelane across Minister Yard, the contra-flow lane at the end of Leemand Road (dubious due to it's short length), the Millenium Bridge and maybe the lane connecting New Lane with Kathryn Avenue in Huntington (never used this one, so can't say for certain).

EDIT: Oh yeah, there's also the Derwent Valley cyclepath.  Though that was better before they slapped a road across it when they created the James Street link-road (and the less said about the cycle farcilities they created as part of that the better!)]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7043#msg-7043</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 11 Apr 2010 20:02:12 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7041#msg-7041</link>
      <author>Bimble B</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Just back from 6 days in York (Bishopsthorpe). Cycled into the City and down to Selby. Can't comment on the whole of the city but we were most impressed by the cycle lanes / routes that side of town. Certainly haven't found anything to match in the Midlands, Leicester included. Unfortunately, security was still a worry - someone from our camp site had their bike stolen while padlocked in the centre of York (NB. The bike was padlocked....not them).]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7041#msg-7041</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:38:12 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7036#msg-7036</link>
      <author>simon</author>
      <description><![CDATA[John Turvey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; As for cafe in the Netherlands, the tea can be
&gt; questionable (you get a cup of heated water and
&gt; are presented with a choice of &quot;tea&quot; bags - but
&gt; most of them are not &quot;propper&quot;tea)
This is one of the reasons I tend to have a little baggie full of teabags tucked away in my saddlebag - Johnny Foreigner just can't seem to get the hang of making a decent cuppa :-)

And don't get me started on French coffee ...]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7036#msg-7036</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:27:26 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7034#msg-7034</link>
      <author>John Turvey</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Strangley enough, I have never cycled on a motorway, neither in Netherlaands or in the UK - I cycled in Australia in 1999 and was told that cycling was permitted on the hard shoulder of motorways in non-urban areas, but I never came across a motorway  while I was there once out of Melbourne so never had a chance to do this.

As for cafe in the Netherlands, the tea can be questionable (you get a cup of heated water and are presented with a choice of &quot;tea&quot; bags - but most of them are not &quot;propper&quot;tea) - but the food is always superb

John]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7034#msg-7034</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:34:51 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7032#msg-7032</link>
      <author>Arch</author>
      <description><![CDATA[John Turvey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; I assume it was
&gt; installed to warn Dutch people of what to expect
&gt; in the UK
&gt; 

Was it next to a motorway cafe selling boiling hot but tasteless tea and rubber sandwiches?  ;-)]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7032#msg-7032</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:37:12 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7031#msg-7031</link>
      <author>John Turvey</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I have only ever met one &quot;access control&quot; (ie an anti cycle barrier) on a cycle route in the Netherlands - it has now been removed, but was in IJmuiden near the ferry terminal - I assume it was installed to warn Dutch people of what to expect in the UK

John Turvey]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7031#msg-7031</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:03:35 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7029#msg-7029</link>
      <author>simon</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Arch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; France is a good example (only because it's one of
&gt; the few places abroad I've been to).  Generally, I
&gt; haven't noticed a huge amount of facilities, but
&gt; drivers are way more accommodating. 
Bingo.
One of the things that struck me about France when I was over there was 
the attitude of the motorists. In fact, the only problem drivers we
encountered were GB-plate sporting muppets near St.Malo. 

I went to Bruges for a conference a few years back and there were plenty
of cyclists in evidence - the facilities weren't as full-on as the sort of
thing you'd find in the Netherlands, but they appeared to be well thought
out and people used them as a result.

Seems that we're never willing to learn from our continental cousins. More's
the pity.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
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      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 18:29:23 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7023#msg-7023</link>
      <author>Arch</author>
      <description><![CDATA[France is a good example (only because it's one of the few places abroad I've been to).  Generally, I haven't noticed a huge amount of facilities, but drivers are way more accommodating. Partly, I think, because cycling isn't something wierdos do, it's something lots of people do - either for utility, or on the Sunday club run - there is of course, much more importance placed on cycling as a sport.

I know that the Netherlands has a huge number of cyclists of course (not been there yet), but they also apparently have a lot of facilities (generally good ones). It's hard to disentangle the two in that case.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7023#msg-7023</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:14:47 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7020#msg-7020</link>
      <author>Geoff</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Too true, all the paint in the world is not as good as sensible driving.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7020#msg-7020</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:32:51 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7018#msg-7018</link>
      <author>Arch</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Borntoolate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; Instead I
&gt; just ride my bikes


And at the end of the day, the more of us who do that, the more will follow.  The annoyance is that so many people think they need 'facilities'.  All we actually need in physical terms is nice tarmac, or even half decent tarmac, and some metal hoops to lock our bikes to. 

The one thing that wold make it more pleasant would be better attitudes from drivers, and no amount of green paint will sort that out.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7018#msg-7018</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 16:30:56 +0100</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7015#msg-7015</link>
      <author>Borntoolate</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The reasons there are a fair number of cyclists in York are, topography, history, middle-class intellectual mentality, traffic congestion and an abysmal rip-off bus service. Note that provision and facilities didnt feature there! We cycle, and we do cycling projects in spite of the Council, not because of them.

Im sorry if I sound over-scathing, but I've just come out of spending 4 years battling against pig-headed, lazy, image-obsessed dinosaur council officers and departments (We have some good councillors)in attempting to have their promises on cycling provision met. They have lied, applied for funds knowing they had no intention of using them for the intended purpose, they have misled the people, they are in short, just as bad as politicians, and in many cases worse. When poor, inaccesible facilities are eventually delivered (stand up Heslington Lane cycle track) they crow as though they have given us the moon on a stick.

Obviously on this forum I'm not going to get Peter into trouble by naming names. If I thought it would make a difference I would hand over a dossier to the Ombudsman and the press. Instead I just ride my bikes, avoiding the worst abhorrences of cycle 'planning', and focus my attention on more pleasant things.

At least I dont live in Sheffield any more!]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7015#msg-7015</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:17:34 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7010#msg-7010</link>
      <author>Arch</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Almost impossible to travel round?

Dear me, how do I manage to commute 20 miles a week then?  And another 12 or so miles a week while working.

And you can go into and through the city centre, you just have to walk.  I've never felt it was a great imposition - most of the time the pedestrian areas are so crowded it would be more hassle to cycle anyway. I can't think of anything more stressful than trying to ride down Coney Street in the middle of an average day - pedestrians wandering in and out of shops, oblivious, stopping dead when they realise they've walked past Smiths and they wanted a paper.  You'd be reduced to walking pace anyway, unless you rang your bell impatiently at everyone and expected them to get out out your way - when they'd have as much right to be there as any cyclist.

All I know is, at the major junctions on my longer commute I will usually see a dozen other cyclists, either going my way or t'other. Way more than a lot of places.  So something must be good for cycling - even if it's the fact that it's stupid to drive.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7010#msg-7010</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 18:33:57 +0100</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: York not in the top 20 UK cycling cities.</title>
      <link>http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7005#msg-7005</link>
      <author>simon</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Borntoolate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; The Cab drivers are more civilised too.
Not exactly difficult, although cabbies in Leeds seem to have a peculiar brand of psychosis which would give your run of the mill psychotic a bad name.

York is an epic fail on any number of levels - almost impossible to travel around, be it on a bike, in a car or on the bus, no safe bike parking and car parking charges are daylight robbery ... so I take my business to Leeds.]]></description>
      <category>VV Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.velovision.com/forum-new/read.php?3,6879,7005#msg-7005</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:31:05 +0100</pubDate>
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